We appreciate your attendance for the early part of the meeting to answer questions and clarify points regarding your proposals.  During our meeting, the biggest part of the committee's discussion was focused on your proposal to add a non-thesis option in your M.S. program.   We did not get to the Ph.D. proposal.  At this point, myself and the committee members ask that you respond to the points below, if possible, prior to our next meeting Jan 10, at which time we plan to continue our review of your proposals.

1. Respond by email or otherwise in a written form to the questions that Mary Martin raised in an email to you with the subject "MS in Physics" and dated Nov 27, 2005.

See my comments below

2. Provide any feedback from the Arts and Sciences curriculum committee as a result of their review of the proposal if available, or your own written summary of oral feedback you received from them.

I was told by Michael Arenson that his committee had no problems with the proposed changes or the disestablishment of the MA, and that they would go out to CAS senate for a vote by e-mail.

3. You stated at our meeting that your department plans to drop the M.A. program in Physics that is currently active in a provisional status.  The approval form and other documents for disestablishment of the M.A. in Physics need to be submitted through the appropriate levels and accompany your current proposal.  The request for disestablishment should precede or at least be concurrent with your proposal to add the non-thesis option when it goes through the faculty senate.

As instructed (by Mason) we have submitted the Academic Program Approval forms to disestablish the MA and make changes to the MS and PhD degrees. In fact we have done this now several times, both as signed paper copies as well as electronic versions. I am at an utter loss as to why these get lost. I have once again attached electronic versions of all documents submitted. Signed copies of Academic Program Approval forms have been delivered to Cynthia Shenkle’s office.

4. Related to number 3, you need to be explicit in the rationale of the academic approval form for the revision of the M.S. that you propose dropping the M.A. program in Physics, which is covered in your currently standing policy dated Dec 11, 2002.  Unless I missed it, there is no mention of this anywhere in the academic program approval proposal form.

 I have added an explicit statement to the Academic approval form.

5. At the meeting, you acknowledged the need to be specific about the 6 credits of thesis and 3 additional credits of research in the description.  The two official documents where this needs to be stated clearly is the academic approval form and the departmental policy document.

I have modified the Academic approval form for the MS, and the policy document.

6. In the rationale of your proposal, it is mentioned that the proposed changes will bring your graduate program in line with most other physics or astronomy graduate programs.  The committee asks that you provide supporting documentation to show the content of similar programs at peer institutions, where the degree has content appropriate for an M.S., but does not require the commitment to research.

I surveyed the web site of physics departments that we compete with for graduate students and found the following

University	options for MS
PSU	Both thesis and non-thesis options
Rutgers
Maryland	Both thesis and non-thesis options
Ohio State	various options with and without thesis or research.
UMass Amherst	Both thesis and non-thesis options
U. Florida	Both thesis and non-thesis options
W&M	MS without thesis, MA with thesis (sic)

Only one place offers an MA (W&M), strangely, this constitutes the “thesis option”.

Harvard and Yale have MS degrees that are strictly one year coursework, presumably bail-out degrees, Princeton doesn’t seem to bother with master’s degrees.

I believe this amply documents the assertions that a) the appropriate master’s degree in physics is the MS degree, and B) that non-thesis options for that degree are widespread.

Comments from Mary Martin

1)  The University only permits 6 credits of 869 thesis for a thesis degree.  Your chart on page 5 indicates 9 credits for the thesis. As a result, 3 credits need to be in some other course.  Normally, the other three credits would not be in “868” research which is what I think you are indicating.  The registration in 868 would need to be justified over the requirements of a course.

I modified the chart, which now indicates 6 credits for the thesis. In the description of the degree requirements it is stated that of the required 24 or 30 course credits 3 may be for research (PHYS868). There didn’t seem to be a fundamental objection against this, but is was not clear to me if this research should be done with the designation PHYS868, or if some course should be created such as “intro to research” with its own course designation. I have left it at PHYS868, since I don’t see any benefit in creating more courses for essentially the same thing. However, an intro to research course could easily be created if the committee feels that this is beneficial or somehow necessary because of university regulations.

2) If I understood correctly, the document indicates that the non-thesis option of 30 credits could include 3 credits of “868” research.  Why would student’s do this if not writing up a thesis and if students are not pursuing a research career?

There are many reasons why a student may want some exposure to research or formal research credits.

In the first place, essentially all our students do engage in research over summer, and it seems reasonable that they can claim some credit for that.

For some students (some of our own undergraduate for example), the MS is a step towards a PhD program at another university. Research experience counts heavily in the admissions process.

Those who seek jobs in industry may be in a similar situation. Often people are hired on the basis of specific laboratory or computing skills.

For those who enter the teaching profession, it is felt that an ability to communicate at least on some level what is science about is quite important. Some exposure to research may be quite valuable, even if it doesn’t result in publications etc.

3) There was not a mention of when students must decide on thesis or non-thesis option.  Does it have to be decided at the point of admission.

From a point of view of the department this doesn’t matter that much. Students will change their mind anyway. However, since we have been told that the “system” requires that they must be categorized, we will do this at the point of admission (obviously in consultation with the student). It may have the advantage that it makes clear to all parties that there are MS “options”.

4) For PhD students who change their mind about the PhD, is it possible to switch to the non-thesis option if they have been funded?

Yes, we expect this to happen with some regularity.

5) Will non-thesis students be eligible for funding ?

Yes, we only admit students if we can support them. There is not much choice anyway, the “market” is such that without support students will not come or rapidly move elsewhere.

6) If a student is admitted as a non-thesis master’s student and then completes the non-thesis degree, is the student eligible to enter the PhD in Physics?

Yes, this is basically unchanged from the current situation where students may enter as MS students, complete all or most of the course work and then change their mind and continue for a PhD.

7) Would it be possible to have a separate chart for the course requirements for those PhD students in the regular tract compared to those in the fast tract?

Since the requirement is simply ”take least 12 credits of PHYS classroom courses at the 800-level within the first year.” A chart seems somewhat redundant. There is no requirement for specific 800 level courses for fast track students.

8) How many credits in 868 research are required for the PhD?

We have never required a specific number of research credits for a PhD. The requirement is to do research up to the point where there is a defendable PhD thesis, not to collect credits.

9) I didn’t see the 969 dissertation course listed in the requirements for the PhD.

I have added this to the chard on page 5.

10) The document states that the students are required to find their own research advisor.  Will the non-thesis students have a research advisor? If not, who is their advisor?  Also, what if the thesis student is not successful in finding an advisor with funding?

Incoming students are assigned an adviser, normally the director of the graduate program. They are free to select an adviser at any time. Students who wish to be supported over summer must have a research adviser before the beginning of their first summer. Non-thesis students would either do some research in summer and would be supported like all other students, or choose to spend their summer in some other way, in which case will have to look after themselves.

For junior students we always find financial support, independent of the funding situation of the adviser.

11)  Will current master’s students be permitted to change to the non-thesis option?  Will the current PhD students who do not pass qualifiers be permitted to change to the non-thesis option?

It seems that we will have very few (if any) MS students left by the end of summer 2006 (They all have firm plans to graduate.) Current PhD students who do not pass the qualifier will be permitted to change to the MS non-thesis track.